'The police is now a factor in mobilizing society'

INTERVIEW / Colonel Robson Rodrigues

After the initial excitement generated by the implementation of the Pacification Police Units (UPP) in some of Rio de Janeiro’s favelas that had previously been dominated by drug gangs, we are now beginning to consolidate the first lessons of an ongoing process of adjustments and improvements. Colonel Robson Rodrigues, UPP commander, confirms this.

There are 17 Police Pacification Units. The newfound sense of peace is also accompanied by new realities and challenges. One of these challenges is that, despite regained control over the territory and the expulsion of armed drug gangs, drugs are still present in these communities. How the UPP police should deal with drug users and ensure that police aren’t spending all their time referring drug users and drug dealers to the police station are some of the questions that worry Colonel Robson.

“During a monitoring visit to Cidade de Deus, at the beginning of the implementation of the UPP program, a woman needed help for her daughter who was a crack addict and going through a withdrawal crisis. Under the previous model, if she had been caught in the act, I would have taken her to the police station; but under this new model I loaned them my car so they could take her somewhere. But where? The truth is, she had nowhere to go. That is when I realized that there is still no solution for this problem. This is an issue that we need to discuss,” the colonel explains.

The UPP commander affirms that a lot of police officers still operate under the previous paradigm and end up referring drug users and dealers to the police station, a complete waste of time.

These kinds of issues will be discussed at the Strategic Meeting on Public Security and Drug Policies, an initiative of the Command of the Pacification Police, which will involve 30 police forces from 17 different countries. Police specializing in community policing and related issues will meet to discuss alternatives to the current model of public security in dealing with drugs and talk about ideas for community policing models that focus on prevention.

Colonel Robson Rodrigues explains that the biggest part of the work of the UPP police officers involves referring drug users, apprehending small quantities of drugs and arresting small retail drug sellers. In this interview, the UPP commander opens up a debate to find answers to these and other issues under an internationally recognized policing model.

What is the importance of the Strategic Meeting on Public Security and Drug Policies?

The meeting will enable a reflection on what we have encountered in the communities since the implementation of the UPP’s. After the criminal gangs left, this entire structure has been transformed and new realities are unfolding. One of these realities – actually a very serious one – is drug addiction. There are a large number of drug addicts in the pacified communities. There has been a continuation of the old model of police work, which is based on arrests and apprehensions, and as a result there has been a decrease in supply.

This led me to a discussion with Viva Rio, to begin to reflect on a problem that I have been seeing in these communities. And this meeting will help us to reflect on this problem, not strictly from a police perspective, but from a human and healthcare perspective, so that we can understand how we can respond and contribute to reducing these problems.

What is the main innovation of the UPP model in favela policing?

For a long time our police practices in these communities were guided by the War on Drugs rationale. We carried out very repressive actions without great results. On the contrary: it increased the violence, increased the number of dead, including the death of polices officers killed in these war-like operations.

All of this was accompanied by major changes in the structure of crime across the country in the last few decades, which had a huge impact on our city, turning the favelas into fortified strongholds where criminals could easily hide and carry out their criminal activities on an increasingly larger scale.

And that is where the image of the favela in our society emerges. It is a society with a strong hierarchical structure, where people who live in favelas are classified as second-rate, third-rate, fourth-rate and fifth-rate citizens. The police aren’t immune to this image and also reinforce these concepts.

We have to deconstruct this and the UPP is part of this work. It will take more than a training program or an order to modify these values, this value system that represents the military police culture and that is part of the culture of Rio and Brazil. Although the UPP is still relatively young, it already has a social impact in terms of these images and also economically.

Is this change in mentality already occurring?

I am seeing a great deal of mobilization, unlike anything I have ever seen in the police. We are quite surprised to see that the police, once regarded as an institution that would never promote this kind of mobilization, especially here in Rio de Janeiro, is now a factor in mobilizing society.

Several projects have come through the police, through the UPP’s. I personally receive several partners each day, people wanting to implement their projects to help these communities somehow, people who are moved by these actions.

I believe that in its entire history the police has never experienced the legitimacy that it has today. It was very difficult to believe that in such a short amount of time things could turn around for the favelas, which were seen as a social and criminal problem. They were called communities –a euphemism– which illustrates how we saw these marginal areas – and now these are being transformed into a possible solution.

Residents are now becoming a market for the corporate sector as companies have started to invest, and they are able to see opportunities, potential. When these people have appropriate support, when they are part of the political, economic and social process, they can transform into solutions, potential solutions and this has been interesting for everybody.

Of course there are still many issues to resolve, there are still a lot of problems. It is an ongoing learning process. I have always said that. This is an open program that assumes we learn from these realities, incorporate them, organize them and transform them into procedures.

Although there are no longer the blatant display of guns or confrontations, how does the UPP police deal with the use and sale of drugs in the favela?

Our police officers still view the drug problem through the lenses of the old paradigm: as a criminal problem, with those standard procedures, those standard norms and those standard manuals. The police find the seller, apprehend the drugs, arrest him and send him to the police station. We see that because we monitor all the incidents and most incidents involve drug apprehensions, arrests of drug dealers and referrals of addicts.

Whereas before the UPP we spent most of our time dealing with violent gun crimes, we now spend a great deal of our efforts on drug addicts and small-time drug dealers, who are more fragmented and lack the previous structure, but who still exist. So the perception of the police officer hasn’t changed, it is still the same, except that he no longer deals directly with guns, because the guns have disappeared or at least are no longer openly displayed.

The drug dynamic hasn’t changed?

We notice that the supply of drugs has decreased and the apprehensions have increased. The result is a cruel residual of drug users who are unable to find the same amount of drugs they used to find before the constant police repression – also society has certain expectations around this and for a long time the goal was to eradicate the drug trade, which is ridiculous.

One of the criticisms was that the UPP program had failed because the drug trade continues. And the police officer saw himself as ineffective if the trade continued. So he began to fight the drug trade and measure his effectiveness against this.

But we will not be able to put an end to the drug trade, but we can change the patterns of violence in these communities, which is the main goal. The seminar will allow a reflection on a preventive strategy for working with these generations, so that there will no longer be a great supply [of drugs] and there will be projects to channel these efforts, this energy of children and youth into more healthy activities.

How much of the UPP police effort is associated with drugs?

Most of it. We are continuously making referrals to police stations, both of users and drug dealers. The dealer goes to prison and the user is referred to other organizations because he cannot be arrested. But this kind of work takes up most of our time. The perspective of my police officers is still entrenched in the old paradigm and consumes most of our energy which could be used to address other important prevention issues.

Or rather, we continue working with repression, but the repression has changed – the guns are gone, the territory has been regained, the struggle has ended, but there is still a residue: the small-time drug dealer. Another perverse element is the minor who commits crimes, sells drugs. Our police officers report: “the drug traffickers are using children”. Now the quantity of apprehended drugs is more fragmented, they are no longer visible or openly sold, but they are still there.

What allies does the UPP require inside the favelas to no longer “fill a leaky bucket” when it comes to dealing with drugs?

Those effective social institutions that stayed away because it wasn’t safe, or that had the idea that anything would do for the poor.  We need to change these conceptions. Through the UPP we are also transforming the environment in this sense, allowing services to arrive. We have paved the road and informed our partners and others who wish to be our partners in this undertaking.

Our target audience is more socially vulnerable and therefore our focus is prevention. Without any intervention, these youth would become part of the violent crime statistics, either as victims or as offenders, particularly the 15-26 year old age group. But with the use of crack we are seeing much younger youth getting involved in crime. Our focus is on these youth who normally are more resistant to being approached by the police or reluctant to interact with the police. We want to work with them and offer prevention programs. So our police officers are encouraged to also create projects.

This has also generated some criticisms.

Yes, some people think that prevention isn’t the role of the police. I think it is, we are working with prevention. Some police officers are referring people to jobs, setting up sports activities, using their skills to help children with their homework, teach soccer, karate or organize events. This makes the police more human and also allows the police to see the humanity in others. This has resulted in a transformation. Furthermore, we will be in a position to talk to these youth and bring in partners who can offer quality training, sports and other opportunities. Sport plays an important role and is a key partner because of the values it entails: discipline, fair play, saying no to drugs, being healthy. In this sense the values of sport are pertinent to the goals of the UPP program.

Does the UPP command encourage police officers to do this kind of work?

Yes, we do encourage it if they have the skills. They are motivated and recognized for it. We are talking here about a program that will have an impact, not in the short term, as our instant gratification society may expect, but more in the medium to long term. Generations and generations are being transformed and they are transforming themselves so they are likely to have a different reality from previous generations. In this sense we are also working on preventing crime, violence and drugs.

At the command level there is an openness to discuss issues around prevention, but does this understanding also exist in the field?

Not yet, but this change doesn’t happen overnight. Although we are a militarized institution, there is no point in the commander simply giving an order to carry out.

Could a change in legislation be helpful?

It is more a cultural change. People need a certain skill for this, there shouldn’t be a military approach, but a creative approach that will map the values of these police officers and discuss these with them and then transform these values to align them with the goals of our program.

I put out these hypotheses and look for partners. I have contacted some universities and give my officers a lot of room to let go of the old models and structures. We need to find new answers for these new realities, not only the drugs, but also gender violence, domestic violence, cultural events, funk music events.

What lessons have you learned from the difference of opinion between the community and the police regarding the funk music events?

The funk music events have been vilified because of their close association with the drug trade and have fallen victim to the same prejudice and generalizations practiced by our police officers. We need to deconstruct this, but we can’t just give an order to change this. We are experiencing a change in behavior, but also a change in values and culture. We have participated in the organization of funk events, implementing basic rules of respect, like a lower volume that doesn’t disturb others, so little by little we will be able to improve things. But it is a process that works hand-in-hand with the community.

Within the partnerships that may address the issue of drug addiction, would it help to approach the Community Health Workers?

I think that would work really well, because their approach is very similar to ours: a model of community action to implement preventive programs, so our strategies are very similar and our fields are quite close together: one cause affects the other. Now that there is security and people can come and go as they please it is possible to do this in these communities. So this kind of partnership would be a very good fit.

How has the relationship between police and the community transformed?

We have noticed that people see the police in different ways, because there are different realities, different needs, different backgrounds and different police commands. Some internalize things more quickly than others. So the relationship between police and community will depend on the particular skill of each police officer, it will depend on the structures and even on the previous relationship that existed between the community and the ruling drug faction.

This will influence how long this process will take and how the pacification process will evolve. This process doesn’t only depend on the police; it depends on all of these factors that are beyond the control of the police. It is interesting that we can map this through our methodology and offer support. This will allow the police officer to understand this faster and better apply our strategies.

Every time we implement a UPP, we learn a bit more and this accumulated knowledge will assist the next commanders. For example, I have already chosen the commander who will go to Mangueira. He has been here with me for a month, participating in all the discussions and I am incorporating all these learnings into the discussions with all our commanders.

A study by the Center of Studies for Security and Citizenship (CESeC), of Cândido Mendes University, talks about the dissatisfaction of UPP police officers. What can be done about this?

It guides us. We already had this impression from our own observations. And now it has been confirmed and quantified through research. Today we clearly understand that there is a symbolic struggle to define the police task, what the police task is.

Is there an identity crisis among police officers?

Yes. The image of the police, or the representation of the police that has been created in western society through cultural references or the movie industry, is one of a tough and macho cop, someone who understands guns, a physically strong guy. So discussion and meditation aren’t part of the elements that make up the image of the police officer in western society.

And this image isn’t part of police training at the moment?

Exactly! What happens is that when people join the police, they often have this in mind, because that image is part of the attraction. And then there is this other problem, because we are in a period of transition, we haven’t defined a paradigm yet; we are leaving one paradigm and trying to create another. There is a crisis and in this crisis there are these conflicts.

The actual program of the Police Academy is an example of this. The course content is relevant, adapted to the philosophy of community policing and human rights. However, the discourse of the teachers themselves, including non-verbal language, may still be loaded with prejudiced concepts, destroying the work that we are trying to do and perhaps contributing to the perception that we encountered in the research.

So today we are sharing this reality through our UPP commanders.   We have made them into instructors and they are teaching at the police academy, sharing their practical experience, their knowledge, mistakes and successes. We call these police officers “the talent group”, these are police offices who channel this new strategy and philosophy into their practices.

Their positive practices, the feedback and effectiveness are measured through indicators that we have developed here for the pacification police. We will show this difference, the change from the previous paradigm to a community paradigm. That is how we will develop our discourse to fight the opposing discourses, in the symbolic arena where the identity of the police is shaped.

This is a group of police officers who are already in the field, who have been working effectively under this new paradigm?

Exactly! We take these talented police officers, the ones who are making a difference, not only senior staff, but also soldiers, so that they can easily communicate with the new recruits. Last week we had a meeting with the Commander of the Police Academy (Cefap) to design a strategy based on these observations. So these are changes that we are implementing on the basis of these perceptions.

There are other studies as well, like the one by the Getulio Vargas Foundation. This gives us the opportunity to compare UPP units. Based on the numbers that have been collected through the research, I will try to understand or at least identify some factors that may relate to what was positive in one UPP and not so positive in another, according to our goals. The research helps us this way.

Could you name a significant case in this transformation?

Major Priscila, the first UPP commander, captain Priscila at the time, had always told us that she didn’t want to work at a UPP. Today the UPP command is voluntary. I set this up when I took command and she had never wanted to do this because of those representations. She went because of our hierarchical system. The first few weeks were quite traumatic for her. And she was entitled to feel this way because a few years earlier she had been kidnapped by criminals and was taken to a favela. When she managed to free herself and run away she hid in a house and the residents didn’t help her. On the contrary, they used a broom to chase her out of the house and she was recaptured by the criminals and almost died. In a second attempt she was able to get away.

So she still had all this animosity, this unwillingness to deal with those who represented her hangman, her enemy.  Over time she was given the opportunity to understand the dynamics of these communities. She was transformed, she transformed her ideas and began to enjoy her work and understood that she couldn’t generalize. And she transformed herself intuitively, because there was no training program to help her do it. She was the first so there was no manual.

Does this manual exist now?

Today we have a system. We don’t have a manual, but we have principles, guidelines and we have an open methodology and techniques to be as creative as possible.  Today we do find a certain standard in our operations, but we don’t want to be too strict and stifle individual creativity, understanding and perception. We can’t have a manual that would be a straight jacket to individual creativity.

How important is the Social UPP to the success of this process?

It is a very interesting partner, but it is still in the conceptual stage. We are working on this and every Friday we have the implementation of a social UPP and I believe that in October we will have a simultaneous implementation. The logic of the Social UPP fits with our goals: enable the State, which never had a legitimate presence in these communities, to gain a presence and acquire legitimacy.

Before, the State came as an invader and public policies never reached these communities. Or if they did they were imposed from the top down. So this process also involves stimulating democratic participation to allow the social capital, which varies from community to community, to grow. The voice of the communities must be represented in this process.

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